The Sales Transformation Podcast

REVISITED: #12 – ‘Selling Professionally’ w/ Dr Beth Rogers and Dr Jeremy Noad
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George: Hi, everyone. George here, the editor of the Sales Transformation podcast.

This week, we're revisiting an episode from way back in the archives as we go all the way back to episode 12, featuring Dr. Beth Rogers and Dr. Jeremy Noad. Beth and Jeremy came on the show back then in 2021 to talk about their book, Selling Professionally, and that book has gone on to be really invaluable to a lot of early career salespeople, including apprentices.

So the reason we're revisiting this episode now is because we're hoping to get Beth and Jeremy back on the show very soon to talk about their new follow-up book, The Sales Professional's Handbook. a lot has changed in the world of sales since 2021, so we're excited to see what new advice they have to give.

So look out for that new episode in a few weeks' time. Look out for The Sales Professional's Handbook when it's released this year. And for now, please enjoy revisiting episode 12.

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Phil: So,

Beth and Jeremy, first of all, I just want to say, uh, a huge thanks for taking part in this, uh, in this podcast.

I am truly impressed with the thought and effort that has gone into the book,

selling professionally. And I am absolutely thrilled that we have a chance to talk about it,

on the podcast.

But before we get into the book itself, it would be great just to,

give the listeners a chance to hear a little bit about your background. So, I dunno where to start. Maybe Beth, I should start with you and, uh, you could just

tell us a little bit about your history.

Beth: Okay. Well, I'm, I'm a real maverick Phil.

I, my first, my first job was as a server in a fish and chip shop when I was, um, uh, probably way too young to be doing it. Actually I was 14. Um, but, uh, yeah,

I was in the IT sector for a long time, uh, working with key accounts. Um, I then decided to, uh, do a master's at Cranfield. Um, and after that, um, was,

doing lot of consultancy work with Cranfield.

Um, went back into the IT sector for a while and then transitioned into working as a full-time academic. I did a PhD on make or buy decisions in the sales organisation, which sounds incredibly dry, but of course, uh, fascinating at the time.

and I've,

written, um, academic pieces,

pieces which are more entertaining and accessible for practitioners.

Um, interestingly enough, this is actually the first textbook that I've written. A lot of the books with Malcolm McDonald have been practitioner oriented. Um, and this book, uh, very much has, uh, students first and foremost, uh, because it's mapped to the apprenticeship. So,

uh, nevertheless, I, I, I hope very, very usable for everybody interested in sales.

Phil: Well, we'll talk about the apprenticeship initiative I think a little bit later on, but, um, that's great. And I, I didn't realise you'd sold fish and chips. I think

my first uh, sort of foray into sales was I was a milkman. Um, alright.

similar scenario. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure we've all got those kind of, uh, interesting early,

career jobs that we had.

But it, uh, it funny enough probably as, as you found dealing with the public teaches you quite a bit about, uh, about sales in a funny sort of way. Even though at that age, you probably don't have much chance to reflect on it as you would do now. But, uh, that's great. Um, Jeremy, I wonder

if we could ask you to do the same.

Jeremy: Okay. So thank you Phillip. Uh, happy to be here. Uh, yeah. I've got quite a long career in sales and I'm still, uh, involved in that. I was just thinking back to my first working experience wasn't quite as glamorous as the chip shop. I remember my first paid employment was picking up litter at Royal Litson Towns for the open golf tournament in 1979.

They did a deal with the school and they sort of shipped us over to sort of wander around and, uh, tidy up after everybody. And that was my first paid employment, I would say. That sounds fairly, um, glamorous. I, I, I would say that, that, yeah, I think you've done pretty well on that one. Yeah, it was good. So you got see the players and, and things like that, but we, we were quite, it was at prep school, so we were quite young.

but you know, working wise has been sort of always associated with sales and held sort of, um, and certainly with the customer firstly, you know, sort of 10 years in the automotive industry, then switching into A or DB it, but mainly about sort of,

intranets and, and wifi setups for, for local government and selling those to as sort of in the late nineties, early, uh, zeros.

Um, and then I joined a company called BOC, uh, where I still am in sort of 2002 and held a ranger positions. Uh, and for the past 10 years I've been fortunate enough to sort of travel around the world, working with sales teams in around 75 countries now.

every continent apart from the two arctics as it were, uh, working with them, getting exposed to how people sell and, and their challenges with their individual markets, uh, and sort of taking a role, um, around how we can be more professional, how we can be more effective, uh, and how we can transform the sales, uh, activities.

Uh, and that's been my focus for the past 10 years and this year has been the year that I've travelled the least, which is kind of nice.

Phil: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think it, uh, I just for, for the benefit of the listeners,

uh, to the podcast is that it's quite rare to find people who've done, uh, doctorates on, on the topic of sales, I would say, if you compare it to other functions.

So, so you have on this call actually, uh, three people now who've got doctorates in sales, funny enough. Yep. And if I could just get back to, to Beth and, and say that, um, in terms of representing the sort of academic perspective, Beth is one of the, if not the

I would say foremost lead on that in this country.

Um, Beth, you probably wouldn't say that, but.

I think I'm going to say it anyway. I think, I think you are the defacto kind of, sort of active lead from an academic perspective. I know Javier at Cranfield may lay claim to that as well, but,

is that right? I think I, I would say so.

Beth: Well, that, that's very kind of you.

I, I guess I've, um, been,

around for a long time promoting sales as, uh, a, a topic to be studied and, uh, explored in higher education. Um, and you know, this, this goes back to the early naughties and,

the opportunity I had at Portsmouth University,

to,

relaunch a masters, which they'd, uh, been piloting,

along with the marketing at that time.

Um. And, um, in doing that, I discovered all that was going on in the United States in sales education, in,

at the university level. Um, and, and really felt, you know, this was something we should pursue in the UK because, you know, obviously has great advantages, uh, for students and employers as well as the universities.

Um, so, so yes, I mean, thank you for the, the accolade. I, I, I, you know, I'm still there. I'm still teaching, uh, key account management and sales management in the uk in, in Finland and, and helping with, uh, a course in Ireland as well. Um, and,

I, I feel it's important. I mean, it's, it's something that, um, you know, the, the more we do this, the, the better the economy will be.

Phil: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And I don't know, um, Jeremy just coming back to you, um, that I believe that you were also a Portsmouth graduate.

Jeremy: Yes, yes, yes. So, uh, I first met Beth on the, the master's course you mentioned. I think I was on the, uh, the second cohort or the, or the second bunch of people.

and that was my return to education after quite a gap, uh, uh, and focused on, you know, getting behind the why and, and, and, and, and what works and, and then taking that in terms of how you can apply it.

And I think that's sort of like a lifelong lesson that you sort of get you, you know, to have the information, to have the knowledge by itself is,

good, but it's the application where you see benefits not only as an individual, but also for the company, the organisation, the economy. Indeed, you know, we, we need to sell things to sort of grow the economy.

Um, and so that was my first exposure, uh, and I did reasonably well with that. Uh, and so then I sort of stayed with Portsmouth and uh, um, after that I did my doctorate, uh, focusing on improving sales performance and trying to understand what are the va the basic building blocks of, of, of sales and how we can sort of adjust those through, you know, yeah.

A bit like, uh, the, um.

psych British cycling team, you know, marginally improving a lot of different things to get a, a net benefit action. So sort of focused on how you go about doing that. And that was sort of one of these research projects, which was built on the work we were doing in the day job, um, across multiple organisations.

So over sort of the past sort of, uh, 20 years now, it's been about trying to sort of broach not only the, it's, it's using that academic knowledge to make a difference in real life and, and practise it, which then sort of says, okay. And that links back to I think, where we, we came to with, with the book, which is about having this knowledge in a, a usable format.

Mm. To build from this idea that people drift into sales, which is a common career path. You sort of end up in sales to where people are intentional about being in sales. And this intentionality as a sort of long term career rather than something you need to do while you're waiting to become an accountant is, is where we need to be to sort of build this professionalism.

Phil: I think we, I think we all share the same, uh, kind of vision,

from that point of view. And I think the other thing just to mention before we move on to the book itself, is the fact that you are also very actively involved in the Journal of Sales Transformation. And I have to say that the work you do in bringing some of the journals to our attention I is also extremely appreciated.

So

Jeremy: thank you. Yeah, I, that's been enjoyable since, since the, since the inception. I've been fortunate to sort of, uh, look after the sales research, uh, for the journal. Uh, and that keeps, that just says 2.1 is it helps me sort of satisfy the need to disseminate and make people more aware of what, what the potential is to improve, but also it helps keep me current, uh, which is very important for my day job as well, in terms of sort of looking at the trends and what's, what's occurring.

So, uh, double benefit really.

Phil: Absolutely. So I think on that note, we should talk, start to talk about the book, but I think perhaps before the book, it's the, um, I think it, it would be useful to talk about its genesis, you know, where did the idea come from? Um, Beth, I wonder if I could sort of come back to the starting point.

'cause you have mentioned apprenticeship,

and

I think that's where a lot of the thinking in its design started. So perhaps you could just talk us through that.

Beth: Absolutely. Well, I was, um, a higher ed, representative advising a trailblazer group for the level six, um, sales executive apprenticeship. Um, subsequently, uh, a level four was also designed,

and I was having conversations with the chair of the Association for Professional Sales,

and the a PS have been absolutely solid and,

really focused on,

getting sales apprenticeships and, and getting the recognition,

that sales can be learned in the same way as other professions.

and I, I said, well,

you know, there's great things coming outta the Trailblazer groups,

but it would be really good to have,

the standards which come out encapsulated with an a book that's, that's focused on them.

because the apprenticeship standards are, are really quite different from the standard academic curriculum that you would find in a, a college or a university,

exploring a topic.

in particular, the emphasis on skills and behaviours is very noticeable. And,

to my mind, some of the skills and behaviours which are being promoted in the apprenticeships are,

really 21st century. You know, they, they are about,

surviving, thriving in the modern workplace.

so yes, so I was semi retiring at that time and said, well, okay, I'll have a crack at it.

and then fortunately,

Jeremy was able to come along and help me after I had, uh, immersed myself for,

the first draught of, of content,

to try and organise that into something that was, was gonna be the, the living, breathing, um, item as it is today.

Phil: so for those that might be listening to the podcast that don't know, um, the situation in the UK 0.5%,

levy is charged to those organisations who have a salary bill of more than 3 million.

And this goes into a digital levy account, and that can be used by corporates,

against, uh, approved apprenticeship

training provision.

and

uh, the training provision,

is then,

provided within the context of a

level four standard series of training modules.

or if it's an undergraduate degree, a, a level six, which would be a university qualification, uh, as well as an apprenticeship award.

The key thing about the apprenticeship is the unique relationship,

between the employer, the student, and the training provider,

and

the employer's role.

Is critical in the success of the student. They need to know,

what their learners are going through.

They need to know what projects their learners are doing as they go through each module,

so that they can then provide the

support, the coaching, like we've been talking about a little bit earlier on.

Um, and I think that the book

that

you've produced can be enormously helpful for

the employers to be able to kind of reference as we, as we've been talking about earlier. But is there anything else, Beth,

Beth: I think we should be very proud of the apprenticeship programmes.

Um, I, I mean, they,

provide opportunities for, uh, people in all kinds of,

roles,

to,

really be,

the best possible. Um, and for employers, I think,

the advantage is,

the student is, is with you. Um, they are being productive as they learn.

and so therefore, you know, something that employers have,

always wanted, I think, which is,

the opportunity, opportunity and, uh, the, the government support,

to help to

up upskill, uh, people they already employ and,

young people entering the workforce that, that they want.

Um,

it's a great framework. I mean, I, I'll moan about the bureaucracy of it at times, I'm sure everybody does. Um, but, but where you see the programmes that, that you are familiar with,

and I, I mean I've seen it, um, quite often, uh, as an examiner, um, of, um, of apprenticeship programmes and you see the kind of output that the students are producing for their employers and you think, wow, you know, this is a, a great investment.

so,

and, and I think for the young people, I mean, what's not to like about an apprenticeship? You get the work experience. You quite often get a professional qualification as well as, uh, a degree or, um, some other kind of academic qualification. Um, you have no debt.

so,

uh, it's a win-win, win.

Phil: It is. And we,

got, um, our first graduating students,

in

February. Wow. In a few weeks time. How about that? Um, uh, what's also, uh, amazing is we've not had one dropout since the beginning of the programme. You know, it tells you the commitment to the students, just to your point, you know, um, the energy levels, um, have been extraordinary and it's

their personal stories as hopefully the endpoint assesses

will say, um, has been extraordinary.

I mean, they really are a credit to themselves and the organisations for whom they work. So we can't, we can't wait to, to celebrate actually

the first group,

in a, in a few weeks time. So, uh, absolutely, it's been a, an amazing journey and hopefully the UK as a consequence of this will be setting a very high standard, I think maybe globally.

uh, we shall, we shall wait and see, but I hope so.

So I, I just want to say a few words about, about the standards themselves.

'cause we also were actively involved, as, you know, in the,

Trailblazer group and the output. So, um, I think what Beth has just mentioned is terribly important in, in that the standards have been set, not by the academic agenda per se, uh, it was influenced by it, but it was actually through collaboration with major companies.

I mean, it's, uh, and that's what was so interesting about the journey that, that we went through on that Trailblazer group. The fact that by working with combination of academic institutions like Portsmouth and Middlesex University, and I think, uh, Anglia Ruskin were involved as well at the time,

that we've come up with something I think that is incredibly strong.

And I, I I, I, I think it's also, uh, a reason why since we have started launching,

the undergraduate programme, the BSE, it's been so popular. I mean, the, the numbers of students now coming through the programme, uh, and the type of companies that are putting their students on the programme is fantastic.

you know, they look at that curriculum and they say, you know, it's a no brainer.

You know, they can, they can see it matching what they think is important. There's, there's not a topic that isn't relevant, you know, for most companies in a business to business sales environment. And I think that's

Beth: a great strength. Once you said, I mean, you know, obviously the government are very emphatic about the fact that the apprenticeship standards must be employer led.

they,

have,

had that as, as a guiding principle from the very beginning. Um, and,

yeah, I, I mean there were employers from all different types of sectors.

and the thing was, I guess with that it did have to be comprehensive enough so that all sectors could use them,

could use the standards.

Um,

and that's what's been achieved. And yeah, it, it's excellent.

know, an excellent framework,

for, um,

the learning that,

will make a difference to people's performance.

Phil: what I have enjoyed, I mean, the, when I first got your, your book,

I thought, my goodness, that that's a big book.

You've got I don't know how many pages, uh, 400 plus with all the, all the business. I thought, my gosh, that because I, you know, as you know, I've just written a book and it's not quite the same number of pages as yours, and I know how much effort goes into writing.

and then I had to flick through just to flick, you know, flicking the pages through and I said, my, you know, just looking at the topics, you know, finance,

the buying process, I'm doing it now as I'm flicking through your book in front of me.

And, you know,

it's an amazing piece of work. But I, I just want to say that the style in which you've written the book is also great because it,

it's as if you are speaking to the student, you know, you're speaking to the person who's going to use it, and that's probably what you had intended it to be.

It's not an academic book, per se. I mean it is, but it is written in a very easy to read style as well. I dunno, Jeremy, I can see you also about to chip in. So,

Jeremy: yeah, I think that was very important because if we think, if you go out to sort of the standards, the standards are, are exceptionally good for the sales and, and develop staff.

The risk that I thought, and which is one of the reasons why I thought there's a really good project to be involved in, was people do all this work about creating the standards and then you sort of print them out, put 'em in the folder, and they go on the shelf. And then how do they sort of get translated into real life?

And then we thought about, uh, and certainly when I sort of started working through, through, through with Beth, is how do we make sure that if you think who's our, who's our, who's our target audience, who are we selling this concept to that, you know, we're sending it to, you know, the 18 to 20 fives, ideally, those people looking to go into this as a career at the early stage.

And therefore you, you kind of have to switch it round in terms of you getting the ideas across. You know, you won't see many academic textbooks, which sort of quote Star Trek. You won't see many academic textbooks that talk about, you know, laying your clothes out in the evening to prepare you for exercise in the morning.

You know, so it's about trying to conceptualise it and bring it into real life, uh, and, and, and trying to get, make sure we get the, the complex concepts across, but in a very consumable manner, which is another reason why, um, you know, it's quite a big book, but it's big book because we cover everything of the standards, but we also, we break it down into chunkable parts that either can be taught or, you know, learn about, read about on their own, which builds the overall picture of what we need to do end to end.

Phil: I quite agree. I, I, I think it, it is, um, a book that you can easily dip in and out of, and you can, you know, choose a chap, you know, that you don't have to read it sequentially. Mm-hmm. You know, you, you, you can,

you know, I I if you're about digital selling, you know, you could go to that chapter and start to, to kind of look at its content and start to think about it.

Um, if you're looking at closing a sale,

you, you know, you can go to that chapter,

which is great. Um, the way that I saw it, and it may may not be correct, but I saw this almost as a, as a reference book that you could go to and go back to on frequent, you know, as a frequent

level, I must say.

I've already learned some things from your book that, uh, I was a bit rusty on, particularly on the section on double entry bookkeeping.

But it's important, you know, understanding the commercial,

you know, the commercial frameworks is a key part of selling. You've really got to know it.

and so I,

there's all sorts that one can pick up on. But,

can you, uh, Beth, I know before this podcast I asked you, which, you know, what did you enjoy most about

the book?

what chapters did you enjoy most,

writing about? Uh, I wonder if I could come back to that question.

Beth: Yes, we, um, we had a good discussion about this because,

in a way, um, what,

I assumed starting to write a textbook aimed at level four was, oh, this will be fairly straightforward.

I know this stuff.

but when I started getting into the apprenticeship standard, I thought, aha, you know, this is, um,

this is a different way of,

approaching,

a programme of learning because there is so much on skills and behaviours. Now, obviously, you don't acquire a skill or learner behaviour from reading about it in a book.

All the book can do is,

provoke your thinking, suggest some activities, suggest how you use those activities, um, in order to,

you know, reinforce,

that practical learning.

but writing those chapters, and I think in particular the behavioural chapters, um, and we talked about resilience, which is, you know, do you learn resilience from, from reading a book?

No. But,

if the book explains to you what it is and what you have to go through in order to develop it, then,

when you experience difficulty in the workplace, um, you know, that comes to mind and, and you think, right, okay, I've got some coping mechanisms. I, I know what I'm going to do here. I feel less stressed out by this situation.

So,

it was a challenge to write that, as I mentioned to you, um, you know, conversations

with people who are experts in psychology and picking up the right,

frameworks such as,

Carol Dweck's mindsets,

in order to, um, try and really be practically helpful,

in what, what you read about,

before you go into a difficult situation.

so I was learning as I went,

and also,

you know, thinking very hard about how to make,

a useful contribution to somebody who's starting out in their career. You know, I'm fortunate that, um, I've, I've

dealt with many students and, and kept in touch with, with many people who've been through sales courses.

And, you know, you have those,

conversations and email exchanges about, oh, X happened today, and I thought about when you were teaching such and such.

you know, I wanted to have that effect. I wanted to. Equip people with things that were gonna help them as and when they came across situations at work.

Phil: yeah, that's very, very interesting. What about for you,

Jeremy, what would you know, what did you enjoy doing?

Jeremy: I think mainly my piece was about looking at the, the, the, the construct both at, you know, almost at the paragraph level, but also the flow of it.

But then I was trying to think about what, what do you do when you onboard somebody? And trying to map out what we like to do to get people settled in the organisation, confident in their, what they need to do and, and that sort of thing. And I was sort of reflecting, and I'm probably sort of more right at the start, where we think about, you know, why are we doing this?

What are the values? What are the visions and mission? Because we'll go there and you'll have an onboarding session, you know, as a new salesperson and the, the sales director or somebody important will come along and say, yeah, this is our vision, these are our values. And you kind of go like, okay, so what?

And so how do you tie that together in terms of what you do? And so you almost sort of start with think with pretty much chapter one links to chapter 20, back to the ethics. And so it links all the way through to say, yeah, the reason you have a value, the reason you have a mission, and how you display that and do that is in the ethics piece.

And then you sort of move through and say, yeah, people are gonna talk to you about lots of jargon, about lots of things, about businesses and things like that. Let's cover that. So, you know, before you get distracted by actually trying to get out and talk to a customer, let's know, the basics and then, and those sorts of sections which sort of layer a foundation.

And then you've got the context about how to prospect or how to have a meeting or whatever it may be. But you've got the context there about what are you doing to make sure that you are doing it to provide value for yourself, your customers, and your organisation. And I think that's the, the bits I enjoy the most.

Making sure that jigsaw puzzle comes together

Phil: well. I certainly think it does in a,

a great way. And, and we've mentioned the a PSA few times, you know, and we talked about ethics and it's great to see that that's quite a strong chapter. Well it is a very strong chapter and, and you,

provide,

the links to the a PSI believe.

And, and also I love the ethical dilemmas, you know, that you, um, had in the book as well because, uh, salespeople are always going to find themselves,

confronted with awkward decisions. Uh, when I talk about ethics, I, I, I share the story of actually only one person in my entire sales career has,

asked for me to give him money for placing a deal with them.

It was quite overtly done. And I must admit I was shocked. And he worked for quite a large American company. It was totally unexpected.

but that was quite an overt, you know, definite No-no. But,

there's been so much about mis-selling, particularly in this country. And,

I think selling has.

Had over the years, uh, you know, a stigma about it, which all of us in cells are wanting to change, of course.

But I think that, you know, that section on ethics, as you say, Jeremy, is kind of, and purpose. These elements are terribly important and they're important for

organisations like yours, Jeremy, you know, it's, it's a key, it's a key value, as you were saying at the very beginning.

so the market, I think for this book was the younger person perhaps coming into sales.

That's, that's for whom you wrote it. I have to say, I think it's also something that those of us have been in sales for quite a few years would value tucking into. In fact, as I've

Beth: hopefully, it's something that people can use for, uh, either revision purposes, or coaching purposes. Um, you know,

we,

recognise that,

a very important part of the apprenticeship,

is that,

senior salespeople and, um, sales managers will be mentoring people,

not just the, the younger entrants.

Um, there'll be people transitioning into sales maybe from engineering.

Beth: so if, if you're in a mentoring role, it, it's quite useful to have a, a reference book. So, well, you know, if this comes up, um, what can I think about?

Phil: I'm very glad you've mentioned that. I think it's a brilliant idea and it's, it's often the, perhaps the slightly weak part of the apprenticeship, isn't it?

It's the tripartite, you know, conversations, sorry, tripartite is the conversation between the learner, the teacher, and, uh, the manager. Mm-hmm. And quite often we find that the learners are acquiring,

higher degree of knowledge and skills and the managers do. Um, so for those managers that are interested, yes, come and talk to us about coming on, on the programme, but,

but actually the book I think would be fantastic for them as well.

Yeah. Really, really, yes. I hadn't, hadn't occurred to me

that it would be good for the managers, as you say, to have a quick reference book on any of the modules they're attending. Mm-hmm.

Jeremy: yeah, and I think I, just to reinforce that, I think, you know, we still see, and we still see the data that coaching makes a difference in sales and the fact that we can, we, we've broken it down so, you know, it could have a coaching encounter, a coaching plan, and look at it.

And, and it also, it provides a common ground. So, okay, we've gotta, we we're gonna work on this skill, this behaviour, whatever it may be, then this could be, this is the, the textbook to say, okay, well this is what we need to be doing. Do you understand what we need to be doing? And also, I, as the coach, can also see against this how I'm gonna work.

So I think that it is a really useful book for, for the sales managers and coaches. And I was just looking this morning, um,

and some of the reviews that we had on Amazon and it, the one that took me was sort of. It doesn't promise, this book does not promise you anything. It's not one of these books that sort of says, you know, become a millionaire overnight and things like that.

What it does do is be useful in a readable manner, and I think that's very important for any of the looking to join the profession or already in the profession that, you know, something that's useful is sometimes significantly undervalued. And I think actually sort of having a single point rather than sort of buying 27 different books.

One about sort of talking about leads, one about prospecting, one about objections and things like that. Let's bring it all together so we've got the solid foundations first and then if you wanna specialise. Uh, whereas a lot what we see and what we saw in the place was it's all micro-focused and you don't get the context about how to be truly good or even world class.

Beth: Yeah, I mean one of the things we wanted to do, I mean, um. Obviously at level four, you expect some breadth

in content.

and certainly the apprenticeship standards are broad.

and,

we wanted,

the depth in the sense of,

making sure that there were,

empirical research sources for the things we were saying.

that also we were finding examples,

and,

you know, helpful comment from practitioners.

now obviously we, we have also said at the end of each chapter, well, you know, if you want to go and read more, here's some things that you could go for. So,

yeah, I mean the, the book, um, it covers the,

basics and then,

there's signposts there

and we talked earlier about the difference between the level four standard and the level six standard.

Obviously the level six standard takes,

learners on a bit further. Um, but there's, there's plenty of pointers in the book,

to use,

to,

get the extra depth on particular topics.

Phil: I totally agree. Well, on that note, I think we probably covered what

we need to on the podcast.

Beth: Absolutely. Yes. Uh, thank you very much for the opportunity, Phil. Oh,

when you,

sweated blood and tears over a book, um, is it's always a pleasure to talk to somebody who's actually used it.

Yeah.

Phil: Yeah. Well, I definitely have, and of course, yeah. I've been through a similar experience, uh, as I mentioned earlier, and I know how much effort goes into it. And, uh, I have to commend your, your thoroughness, you know, in all the topics that you've covered and, uh, the style in which it's been written as well.

So,

thank you for taking part. Thank you very much. Okay. Okay.

Thank you. Okay. Thank you both. Have

a have a have a wonderful weekend. Thank you. Yeah. Bye.​