The Sales Transformation Podcast

Episode #1 - What's the difference between Sales Training and Sales Education?
Phil:
[00:00:14] So, Louise, welcome to the first guest on the sales transformation podcast. Um, no, I think it's very. relevant that you should be the first, um, you know, as the Academy directorate at the consolidate business school. but I thought before we go into maybe some of the questions that we've got to cover, it, it would be quite good for the listener to know a little bit more about you and your background, and how did you end up getting to this particular point as, the Academy director? it's not really a sort of conventional journey I did. I don't think either for you in your role or me and my role indeed, we didn't expect to end up being, you know, sort of doing well, we're doing in a way. So I think it would be a really good to go back and just say a few words maybe about, what your background has been. and then we can move into another topic that we're going to cover on this call, which is about. the difference between sales training and sales education
[00:01:23] Louise: okay. Um, so I've had a career of two halves, really? So the first top of my career, I studied geology and computing. my first job was with BP, uh, as a computing geologist. And that really took me into a root of it, project management and consultancy.
[00:01:43] So the first half of my career was very much in that space. one on one, when I look back on it now and think about where I am now, I'd say it's really interesting because. Developing computer systems for users makes you put the user at the heart of what you do. And I kind of think that's where I am now with students as I've moved into the second half of my career.
[00:02:05] So the second half of my career, I moved into learning and development and that transition happened primarily because I had my family. And I wanted to work, um, part time for awhile and take an internal role in the consultancy organizations that I was working for. And so I moved from doing the consulting to thinking about the skills that the consultants needed and the, the trends that were happening in our world and thinking about the interventions and the training that they needed.
[00:02:36] And that moved me into really thinking about, um, Training learning and development and capability management. And as I made that transition, I thought, this is what I should be doing. It was one of those four choices, um, moments when I just thought this is the right career for me. I also took a couple of coaching qualifications.
[00:02:57] absolutely loved that, uh, realized again, just fitted with my values. And so the second half of my career has really been about. helping people achieve that potential and thinking about the rights, learnings that they need to help them thrive, no roles. So very much a career to, huh. my journey to consolidate came because the role before consulting, I was working at Sony mobile.
[00:03:24] And, uh, in that role, I, Implemented initiated and implemented a commercial Academy. And as part of that commercial Academy, we wanted a program for, the top sales talent. And when we were looking for the right program, we came across. Consolidate and the masters program in, um, sales transformation brought that program into Sony mobile as a global program.
[00:03:50] So we had students from, around the world, uh, involved in that program and. It was superb and it produced, incredible results. And, um, you know, really that sort of made me realize I love this program. I want to do more with this program. And here I am at consolidate now heading up the Academy.
[00:04:11] Phil: And so, yeah. So here you are. I mean, it's, you know, for us, I remember the first time, we met you. Well, I, I think you met Ian, um, in helps, not me. And, um, we were running these events to promote the masters and it was quite hard because at that time, you know, the market was very undeveloped.
[00:04:32] We essentially created this masters program. And we had a number of big, big clients kind of supporting it. Um, who, who likes soda sorta got huge amounts from, it people like, you know, Toshiba and, SAP. I, we say we knew it was a fabulous. Development journey for people in sales. and we wanted to get the word out.
[00:04:57] And so yes, we had these events that we hosted every now and then. And you came to one and you were the only one there. I think
[00:05:05] Louise: There were three of us.
[00:05:06] Phil: over there three, there were just very few actually wondered whether we should council it because there wasn't seemingly that much interest in what we were doing, but, You know, I remember in st should we do it?
[00:05:17] It's not very good. There's only three people that anyway, we did it. And thank goodness we did, because, you know, we had the chance to meet with you, meet with the Sony team and, Sony alongside some of the other corporates we had at the time, you know, sort of took it on board and, um, yeah. That's, you know I'm not sure that's where the story started.
[00:05:42]Cause if I, if I look back, you know, if we're looking at where the Genesis is of where this all started, I suppose you could say that it may have started a little bit from the doctorate that I did, but it was, it was not really. That's at the time. It was, it was Hewlett Packard at the time who were part of my research focus.
[00:06:04] And, um, and they saw being on the receiving end of the research, the value it was generating. And they said, could you build a program for us? Could you create a master's for us? So. If we sort of start to go back to the Genesis of where this idea of professionalizing sales and sales education started, I would say that it probably started in, I don't know, 2007, 2008.
[00:06:32]when we built that first program for Hewlett Packard and sort of seeing what it did for those. I think only three graduates from that program. To be honest, it started with three, three finished qualifying at least. But you could see for those three, the transformation, you know, that it made to themselves and their careers.
[00:06:53] And, and so that was enough. from my point of view, certainly to kind of say, this is something we should explore and, try and build. but it was, it's been quite, you know, it's been quite hard as, as you know,
[00:07:11] uh, to do that, but, um, I think what's, um, clearly what's been a pivotal change in this journey was the whole apprenticeship initiative, you know, by the government. And, you know, you clearly played a, key role in that, as well.
[00:07:29] Now I stumbled at coastal talk. We did at our global GST event back in 2007, almost three years ago now where we shared with our attendees about the story behind yourselves apprenticeships. And I thought it would be good now to go back to that point in time, and maybe just some of the memories and excitement of that particular day.
[00:17:04]
[00:17:04] So I think it would be interesting to ask you some questions about, How, cause I don't think I've ever asked you actually, what was it like to chair that group of people at the
[00:17:14] Louise: The trailblazing group.
[00:17:15] Phil: Yeah, it will a say. So you could just share the journey that you went home. trying to get sales established as a profession, working with the group that you did.
[00:17:28]Louise: Uh, okay, so I'm going to answer the first question, which was, what was it like to leave the trailblazer group first? Because that was brilliant. Um, I loved it. I love the fact that every time we went to the trailblazer meetings, there were a group of people in that you had the same goal, shared the same passion, which was to professionalize sales and to develop the B to B sales Prentice.
[00:17:54] And every time you felt there was a shift and there was energy in the room and that was just brilliant. Fantastic. It's a group of people we always move forward. Um, and I love that bit, but the journey was really, really hard. So the second part of your question, what was that like? It was really tough and, um, you know, We started to develop the program as the government were, I guess, transitioning and developing their process to develop apprenticeships.
[00:18:22] And so. We found that we had to keep changing what we were doing. So it took longer to develop the apprenticeship, getting the assessment plan out, which was the final hurdle. And also the funding band, um, were particularly challenging. and that's when it became aware that that sales still is really not perceived as a profession by many people.
[00:18:45] And, The frustration that we felt at the time from the group, from the sector and just really that last hurdle of trying to get it through so that it was approved By the Institute for apprenticeships by the ESFA that we could start, the apprenticeship was, I don't know. It literally felt like the goalposts were moving every meeting, but we got there.
[00:19:06]and you know, the, the feeling of achievement, the feeling of relief when we got there was just huge. But I can remember the day we had the first apprentices In the room at Middlesex and in the training room, Middlesex was just one of the best moments. Um, seeing it really happen, realizing that we were having that program start and we were developing at the time.
[00:19:29] It was, uh, 20 apprentices. just amazing. Just amazing to see them come through the door. They were nervous. We were nervous, but how brilliant it was to get there. So, um, yeah, but it was a journey. It's a long journey.
[00:19:42] Phil: I would like to go back a little bit in a bit more detail on the journey, because I know that it was wonderful seeing there's apprentices come into that, that room at the very beginning, of the start of the apprenticeships. But, now I think it might be quite interesting for the listener to understand, The process that we went through to creating what's now become a level six undergraduate degree.
[00:20:06]you know, when you talk about pivotal moments, Louisa, for me, one of the pivotal moments was the government sort of recognizing that we were a profession and that therefore we could build a degree around it, or we could build a qualification around us. And that was the first time, um, The, you know, that that was the first time ever that, a public body government body had said, Oh, we finally recognize, that sales is up there.
[00:20:37] Um, but. I think what was really good about working with the trailblazer group was that they were responsible for coming up with the knowledge, skills, behaviors, you know, the standards that such a degree program had to be built around and that it was a, you know, it was a robust process. Um, so I'd, be interested if you could just share some of the.
[00:21:05] Underpinning, you know, what do we have to do to get to the point that we could run on the degree? and how did you get that? You know, how did that trailblazer group to come together to figure it all out?
[00:21:19]Louise: Okay. Um, well, the first thing that we had to do, and this was, uh, you know, we obviously had the. The backing and we're working very closely with the association of professional sales, um, to, to do this was to put the, the bed into the government to develop an apprenticeship for a degree apprenticeship for the B to B sales professional.
[00:21:40]and so we put that in, um, I think it was in April, actually April time. And, that was a kind of a two month review process By the Institute for apprenticeships, and then we got that bit approved. And as you say, that was amazing. So really we had to justify why there was a role, why there was an apprenticeship and the benefits that that would bring, to the sector, to get that approved by the government.
[00:22:05] And then we, kicked off the trailblazer group and, um, the September. And, that was amazing. So the chair for our trailblazer group was, Graham Davis, who was head of sales at Royal mail at the time. And the government had, You know, guidelines for the composition of the trailblazer group.
[00:22:23] So you had to have at least 12 members and two of them needed to be from small to medium sized, prizes. So we had a real mix of people in the room, which was fantastic from all sectors, all sizes of organizations. so we had Royal mail. BT British aerospace as like G we had whitbreads, uh, consolidate with, uh, um, so we had.
[00:22:50] Kimberly Yeah, I should have written it and I'm going back now, but yeah. so really good mix. And as you say, the first output from the trailblazer group was to, produce a two sided, a full documents of the knowledge, skills, and behaviors of. A B to B sales professional. So how do you do that? How do you bring all of that knowledge from all of those experts, all of the different sectors and put it onto two pages.
[00:23:20] So that was the first challenge. but as I say, the whole momentum was there from everybody that they wanted it to work. So we put some working principles together at the beginning on how we had to accept there will be compromises. They were going to be some things that people want. Didn't necessarily happen in their organizations, but they could see it was the right way generically for the sector.
[00:23:43] Um, you know, other working principles were that we just had to keep moving forward. So if someone hadn't been at the meeting, they had to accept what had been agreed by those who were, so it was always about momentum and taking it forward. Um, And you know, that first discussion on what are the knowledge, what are the knowledge and skills and behaviors, but from everybody, you know, we just had flip charts around the room.
[00:24:06] We got people talking, but what towns, um, that really uninfected well Matthews, I think he put this suggestion forward from BA systems that we should just base it on the sales cycle. That was the best way to try and identify the knowledge, skills, and behaviors across the group. Um, And once that decision to be made, it food, it floated as a sales cycle place.
[00:24:29] So we were able to start to identify them. Um, and that was an amazing, it was just an amazing meeting. I think within, within three hours we'd worked out the principles and we'd worked out a kind of good draft of what the heading should be for the knowledge, skills, and behaviors. And then people just took.
[00:24:45]The Millway we said, okay, you work out the details of two of them. You work out the detail of the next two. And everybody kind of went away with their homework and came back and fed back. What they felt detail was beneath that knowledge, heading the skills heading. And we thrashed that through the next meeting.
[00:25:02] So it was just always, let's keep moving it forward. And we finally got to. Two sides of a fall to define those knowledge, skills and behaviors for a B to B sales professional. And we submitted the standard and the, um, December. So that was three months, really, which is pretty good going, um, given the different.
[00:25:23] Views different approaches. And as I say, just everybody in the room having their own context to try and merge that context into, into those two sides or they fall, I still look at it sometimes and think, wow, how did we manage to do that? Because it is just on two sides of April. So that was the first hurdle we, they all fat gateway.
[00:25:43] So the government approved that gateway. And then we had to define, um, the next gateway was the endpoint assessment plan. Much bigger documents, much more detail. How are you going to evidence that the apprentice has met the competencies that you've defined, in those knowledge, skills and behaviors? And, uh, we went through the same process, giving it out across the team.
[00:26:08] So it really was a combined effort of getting the expert views from everybody in the room into that document. but that's the one that, that was really quite hard to do in terms of getting acceptance from the, Institute for apprenticeships, because as I say, their processes were merging and they were.
[00:26:26] Improving and shaping things as they went along, but we had to play catch up, as they were doing that. So, that took a year. And I think by all accounts that was still good going, compared to other trailblazer groups. but yeah, big thick documents. Um, and that went off for approval. And at the same time we had to apply for funding for the, um, degree apprenticeship.
[00:26:50]that was, you know, disappointing because, we were awarded funding. Of 21,000 pounds, you know, eventually we had to do quite a bit of appealing to get to that point. and other degree apprenticeships have been awarded 27,000 pounds funding band, but, we went with it because, you know, consolidate and, everybody in that trailblazer group.
[00:27:13] And I did forget to mention that. Of course, we had representation from the universities and the trailblazer group and their input was so important to ensure that what we were putting into the end point assessment plan particular was something that could fit with the way that universities work in delivering their degrees and assessing their degrees.
[00:27:32] Um, and we just decided that we would move forward with the 21,000, because if we didn't get the program started. We never would. We just had to accept that we had to work with that figure. Um, and we have, but it's tough, you know, but I, feel certainly consolidate Middlesex university consortium needs Trinity university.
[00:27:52] We we've developed a program. that works. That's brilliant. That is producing some amazing B2B sales professionals. but yeah, quite a rigorous process. As you say, with approval points, gateway set by the government all the way.
[00:28:07]I teach kiss reminded me. when you mentioned that, you know, the three years since the standard was approved, there is still, the trailblazer group was still neat that there was climate. There was a requirement to meet, every three to four years, I think, to check the relevancy of the standard.
[00:28:25] To check. Um, you know, so it's not like it's a one off document that's parked, it will be up for review. and so we will need to bring everyone together again, which will be great. but it is about ensuring that the KSPS, uh, are still the right KSPS, um, and it's still relevant. So that's a really good thing to, to know that it's happening.
[00:28:47] Phil: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's interesting. And possibly you don't know this, but, um, you know, we've shared that, uh, knowledge, skills, behaviors, assessment with different. Organizations outside of the apprenticeship as well when we've talked to them about our approach to sales development, and it is very robust.
[00:29:06] I mean, there's nothing in it that you can really challenge. So I think the, whilst it was a painful process, I think the, the fact it was done so collaboratively, it's obviously stood the test of the universities as well as, you know, the employers, You know, it speaks a lot for the quality of what took place at the time.
[00:29:27] So. Yeah, fantastic. So, we then created the first undergraduate degree. We had a couple of corporates who had, decided to, you know, to pilot this program. I don't know if the first cohort was a pilot, but, um, but maybe you could just talk briefly about the journey since, uh, since it was launched, you spoke about, that very first one, but I think we're in a slightly different place now to, to where we were at the very beginning.
[00:29:54] Louise: Yeah. So we now have, I think, eight cohorts running at the moment, which is brilliant. And we have a, yeah, probably about 150 apprentices in total, on the B to B sales, professional apprenticeship , which is just great. Um, you talked about that first cohort, perhaps being the pilot cohort.
[00:30:19] I call them the pioneering cohorts. You know, they have been pioneers, they've gone through the journey with us as we've launched that program. You know, every module that we've delivered is the first time we've delivered that module with them. So, there are definitely going to be, improvement that we can make things that we know really work things that we could just tweak a little bit.
[00:30:40]and the apprentices have been fantastic sticking and going on that. Hi, Mary journey with us. they'll be graduating next spring. they'll finish their last assessments at the end of January, and then they'll have their end point assessments in February. So they really have, as I say, being a pioneering cohort, and I do think that, cohorts to three to eight and onwards will benefit from the learnings that we took from that, um, that said, you know, they are. Really successful students and salespeople. So it's been a good journey for them. But yeah, we have always put the students the heart. I've always, you know, my mission is, you know, Phil is, is always about the student's experience and making sure that we make it work for them. And that's been absolutely key in any of the reviews from every module, from every year, from any discussions that we have, how can we really ensure that we're providing the best student experience we can within the program?
[00:31:42] So, yeah,
[00:31:44] Phil: We've also, you know, it's not just the undergraduate degree, but, since we launched that, we've now started focusing on the senior leader degree as well. And so, you know, perhaps you could just say a few words about how that came about
[00:31:59] Louise: Yeah. Yeah. And I will do, and I do just want to say, there's obviously the level four sales executive apprenticeship that we supported as well. The development of that and what was the APS to get that one approved, which, um, It's good, but yeah, the sales leaders as senior sales leadership apprenticeship is a master's program.
[00:32:19] Um, you mentioned at the very beginning of this podcost, that's, a master's level qualifications programs were the first ones that consolidate developed. And we knew we had you know, flagship musters program, the one we'd brought into Sony and The leadership program running with SAP and Toshiba, we knew we had an amazing program there that worked for sales leaders.
[00:32:42] And, so we wanted to, bring the best of that into the apprenticeship program, aligning it to the senior leaders standard, which had been approved by the government going through exactly the same process as the one I described for the level six B to B sales professional. it's really important that, the sales leaders, move with the apprentices.
[00:33:03] You know, we weren't realizing that we were developing some fantastic, level six apprentices and that many of their managers were saying that we'd like to do a program too. We'd like to get involved with this. We can really see the benefit of the learnings that they're getting. And we want to, be a part of that.
[00:33:21] And so that was the opportunity then to develop, The masters apprenticeship, the senior leaders, apprenticeship and, it's great because apprenticeships, you know, they at the heart of the programs, we've got the transferable skills. So yes, we're helping with sales leadership, we're passing on that knowledge.
[00:33:40] But the big thing about the education is that it's. I guess it's multi dimensional in that the learning doesn't just come from us. It comes from that workplace reading than peers. it's going to come from events that they attend, but it also comes through the reflective practice, which is really at the core of all of our programs.
[00:34:01] So we're helping them to. take meaning from their experiences and to take meaning from their experiences as sales leader, or was it B to B sales professional, and, analyze what's happened, reflect on what's happened. And then really draw out what they've learned. And that's what the education piece is about, rather than the training that it's multifaceted, that they take this learning from many different places and we help them pull all of that together into, their work based projects and the managers and the leaders could see that happening with our B to B sales apprenticeships.
[00:34:36] And so they wanted a piece of that too. We now have. Three cohorts on the senior sales leadership program with another one starting in November. So yeah, that one's also picking up pace and, um, great, great results again. Yeah.
[00:34:53] Phil: It is. so yeah, no, just a fabulous story. I think there's, there will be maybe approaching or over 300 student enrolled students. If you look across all of the exact masters, as well as the apprenticeship programs by early next year, which, It's quite considerable. so yes, a growing body of educated people in sales, and I think sales is always viewed education with a certain degree of cynicism.
[00:35:21]the term took it's too. Academic is sometimes used when we talk to different clients, depending on their perspectives. Of course. And I think, The next bit of the podcast that I'd like to talk about are the, the sort of merits of sales training versus sales education.
[00:35:41] I mean, the, the difference between, you know, what, what is the difference between the two, uh, do the two co-exist. So if you were to look back now on what our learnings have been through those coming through the educational side in particular, what would you say would be the, key benefits of looking at the development of salespeople through an educational lens, as opposed through to a training lens?
[00:36:10]Louise: So the development of salespeople through an educational lens. Just as you were talking Phil, this phrase popped into my head, which actually came from one of our senior students and that the education lens, I think he just sums it up. He talked about how, and this was after his first project, the first module.
[00:36:30] And he said, you're making me challenge the thinking behind my thinking. And that's what the education bit does. Because we're asking them to go away. And as I said, you know, to reflect and to read and to talk to people and it's collaborative, what do you think about this? And you sort of bring in and start to search for different viewpoints and ideas to see what's right.
[00:36:53] For what you're trying to do with your team or within your organization. And that's the educational piece. Not to just kind of take what you're given, but to really think about it. And check that it fits your context. Whereas training, I think, you know, we can pass on information in a training way and that might work and it will work in some way circumstances, but it's going to be enhanced and just.
[00:37:22] Made right for what they're doing. If they think about it and apply it and make sure it works or do they need to tweak it. And that's the difference between the education piece and the training? The training is almost from the trainer to the delicate . Try that see if it works, this is what we think is best practice, but the world is changing every single day, and what's right today might not be right tomorrow and we're learning that faster than ever at the minutes.
[00:37:47] So if we can give through the education piece that the students, the ability to really critically think and just check in with themselves and check in with others. But what they're doing is right now, because it was right yesterday. It doesn't mean it's right now. We're giving them the ability to really, think, and, and they're the transferable skills.
[00:38:08] They're the skills that are going to take them forward to be successful today and tomorrow. And that's the difference that we're really getting them to think in the, in the wider world and think about context and, um, and just critique what's happening and reflect on what's happening training. It stops with, try that.
[00:38:27] It's sometimes it's really good and try, that can be really helpful, but then it's when you've tried that, think about it. And what did it do and did it give you the outcome you expected? And it's really, that's where the education comes in. and realizing there are many different viewpoints to draw on.
[00:38:45] Phil: Yeah, it's interesting. There's a couple of thoughts that sort of flow into my mind. one, a personal one, which goes right back to my very first sort of sales job. And I remember that my sales training at the time was, was learning a complete script. You know, I literally sat down with a, with a flip chart board and I went through page after page and I had certain questions I had to ask because before I went from page one to page two, and my training was very much on perfecting the script.
[00:39:15]then it kinda moved on. It. Wasn't so much sort of in there. If I look at the sales training world, it moved on to learning different techniques and different methods. there's still a high degree of script involved though. even down to the way you would phrase your what's, what was called silver bullets, you know, how do you.
[00:39:39]sell the key features of your, products and services? So, the approach to sales training historically is kind of gradually shifted, I think from this highly scripted, highly product focused approach, over the years too. perhaps more consultative approach.
[00:40:01] Um, but this, this nation of reflective practice, you know, is, a new one to sales. You know, I think we've all always said, it's a, it's one of the critical skills anyone needs right now is the ability to think, you know, say what you're saying about education is absolutely. I think spouse home, but what for me is quite interesting.
[00:40:22] Cause we, we. W we've been doing a bit of an experiment this year with one of our clients who've said, can we take the kind of framework of the masters and deliver that content in a non master's environment? so we'd like you to, you know, we'd like the knowledge and skills that you impart. We'd like you to challenge our thinking.
[00:40:46]we would love the. Kind of peer learning, the coaching that goes on with peer learning. We liked the idea of assessment. We want you to get them to, you know, we want the students to be assessed as part of a journey, not to a master's level, but a certificate level. And you know, we're beginning to now be able to evaluate, the change that you see in people over that journey and compare it to.
[00:41:16] What they would get, if they'd done a masters, of course, doing a two year master's degree is very different to doing a six month training program, you know, so you, you know, you're limited with time and cost tent and everything else. but there is, I think there is, for me, there's the, it's not just teaching them reflective practice, but it's actually.
[00:41:41] You know, it's personal currency. It's knowing that when you go through this journey, your work is going to be assessed and you are going to end up as a master in leading sales transformation. Or you, get to end up with an undergraduate degree. Yeah. Which has been assessed by a university. And that.
[00:42:03] Personal currency is hugely important. So I don't know, you know, Dana, what your thoughts are. You need to, what if we're looking at improving sales performance, which at the end of the day is what this is all about. You're wanting to help clients improve the sales performance of their salespeople and individuals want to improve their sales performance.
[00:42:25]what's the magic that you get from education, That makes people transformed so much. Cause there's, there's no question. People do change. They do transform. They end up different people at the end of a program. I think it's very difficult to do that with training. I don't know what you think.
[00:42:46]Louise: Again, no, which is very difficult to do that in training. And I think. Training, maybe digital training, or it may be a two day training program. I mean that they're short and sharp and they have a very clear focus on the content that they're trying to, pass on to the, to the delegate or the student. I guess one of the differences is clearly with education it's over time.
[00:43:13] And, um, we are really encouraging people to, to, to critique and challenge and make sure things are relevant. we have more time perhaps to talk to them about the nuances of their customers and, you know, and you talked about, consultative selling, you know, customers are becoming much more sophisticated.
[00:43:33] And so we can really bring that as I say, their context, their customers into their education, what are their customers doing? So what do they need to do? So it becomes relevant and applicable to, to their world. And I think that's where some of the transformation happens because they're given the opportunity to really.
[00:43:56] Delve into their customer's world, as well as think about themselves and what they're trying to achieve for their organization. And I think it's having the time to do that. And some of the students, you know, they go away and talk to their customers. What'd you like about what we do and what, what could we do better and, and really hearing that, and, you know, and you and Sonya have the voice of the customer, videos and content that we have, but when students do that for themselves and talk to their own customers, um, or try something with that, customers who feedback that that's, you know, thank you that really helped and really appreciated that.
[00:44:31] Or by actually bringing in their customer's world into their program. That's what helps them transform. So it's the reflection and having that opportunity to bring their customers into their thinking, in a much deeper way than you would in a training program. and having a time to do that.
[00:44:49] Phil: If you took away the end point assessment. And if you took away the actual degree, to what extent do you think that would have kept everything else? The same? To what extent do you think that would affect their performance?
[00:45:05]Louise: It would, it would, impact some of them motivation, I think, because as you say, there's a real pride that personal currency in achieving. a degree. Uh, and in fact, you know, one of, one of all, um, uh, printers spoke to me the other day and they said, is it going to be great ceremony? And I said, yes, is it exactly like the other students at university?
[00:45:29] I said, absolutely. You're taking a degree. And she said, we, you know, I'm the first person in my family to do this. Like, you know, as much as I want to do it for me, I want my mom to have that photograph of me on the wall. Graduating and, you know, you could hear the pride almost busting out of it because they're in that third J and it's so important for them to have, um, recognition of the hard work and the achievements that they've made, during that program.
[00:45:59]so absolutely I think it's, It's a big part of a day apprenticeship program is to have that integrated degree and the, and the musters accreditation at the end huge part to the students. Um, yes, they love the learning, but they really want that recognition. Yeah.
[00:46:20] Phil: I'm sharing how, how mature I am at podcasts. I just knocked over my, my microphone please. um, no, it's, it's, it's an, I, I think it's massively important to actually that, that sort of end. Uh, goal, um, I've found with salespeople. This is a theory that I have is they're naturally competitive, you know, and what they do, they don't just want to pass, but actually there's quite a lot of, I want to pass well in, I've certainly feed that through the masters.
[00:46:51]and I remember when I, when I got my, my doctorate, Chris and I, I know you're starting on your, uh, Doctorates as well now, Louise, which is great. Um, is a, I remember sort of doing the Viber and I would say, okay, you've, you've kind of, yeah, well done. You've passed. And I, I remember saying, well, how well did I pass?
[00:47:13] I wasn't a good pals for a bad policy day. And I think that's the nature of being competitive. You know, we've got that element in it. And I actually think that, certainly speaking to the university and the academics that I think they feel that the students coming through our programs are actually fantastic.
[00:47:32] Now they love working with them because they, they're quite challenging and they really want to learn and they really want to do well. so I think it, in a way academia lends itself to the sales profession because they want to do well.
[00:47:49] Louise: Yeah, no, without a doubt, they are a very competitive, definitely wants to get the best grades they can. I have many calls saying, how can I, how can I, my grades, what do I need to do? You know, even when they're, even when they're in the two, top two, one, and first, what else can I do? And you're thinking you're doing so well, but yeah, they just want to keep doing more.
[00:48:11] Um, and yeah, and graduate with the best, the best grade they can. Yeah.
[00:48:16] Phil: Well, I'm super excited about, about the journey as you know, and, um, you know, it's just incredible to see how much you know, is transpired in the three years. I think that we had that first government announcement, kind of made that we could start on this journey and he would default now that we've got so many, you know, sort of coming through the program and it's great to see some of the universities now opening up as well. You know, I think it's, it shows that there's a market that, and, UK is a long way behind USA, as far as the undergraduate programs are concerned, but we're a long way ahead of the USA.
[00:48:53] As far as the masters is concerned, uh, say globally, hopefully we can become a. center of excellence around this particular topic,
[00:49:05]well, I think we're probably nearing all time for this podcast. Thank you so much for joining. I think it's been great to, um, relive some of the memories and kind of reflect on what's been achieved
[00:49:20] um, but, uh, thanks very much for taking part.
[00:49:23] Louise: Lovely. Thank you,
[00:49:25] Phil: No, I hope you enjoyed hearing a bit about the history of the consolidate sales business school, as well as developing a brief understanding around the differences between. Sales training and sales education. I want to say, thanks again to Louise for taking part. Now, if you found the podcast interesting, please share this with at least one other sales person that you know We would very much appreciate the message being out there. Thank you very much.
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